Just a few questions re. Revival, the Holy Spirit and Todd Bentley etc.

These are genuine questions, I'm not having a go... I have been doing some research into the Florida thing and watching videos... I haven't yet been able to turn on "God TV" ! but I have been watching the streams from Florida...  so here's a few questions, like I said they're genuine and I would like serious replies/thoughts...

• Bentley kept saying things like "In Holland it's breaking out... Pastors in Holland, you need to get on a plane and get over here"... Why if "it" is already breaking out in Holland do they need to get on a plane to Florida?  TBH I never got the Toronto thing about going over there to get something from an omnipotent,omnipresent God anyway... but it seems doubly odd if it is already happening in ones home country to have to go to Florida... it suggests that what is "breaking out" is not the same thing or not as "powerful"???
• Bentley tells stories of several "raisings from the dead", including two in Northern Ireland... but try as I can I get nothing when I google or search the press... and in these days of 24hr media coverage, when international news companies can know about me coming to Telford, I just cannot believe that the media would not have coverage of people coming back to life, especially in the western world??? Surely, the doctors, morticians, scientists, police etc. etc. would talk about it... surely if it was a real "healing" from God, then the Churches would want to shout about it from the roof-tops... yet I can find nothing???  If you have, let me know.
• Why is there so much talk of "seeding' of revival through financial giving? - eg. “It may be that $1000 seed that you need to sow this morning.  It may be that $500 seed that you need to sow this morning.” and "The treasure room is open and you’re just sowing" even to the point of encouraging people to use their credit cards to give beyond what they have in cash?  If people feel called to support Bentleys ministry all well and good, but that is a different thing to me... do people believe that there is some sort of exchange going on 'cash for charisma'?
• I will be honest, I don't see much fruit from the Toronto thing... the Church is in no stronger place, in fact it seems in a worse state to me - numbers continue to decline, we have had the rise of things like "Word-Faith"  the "make me rich" prosperity rubbish and extreme fundamentalism... neither is the World in any better place by any measure... there is no more peace or justice on the whole??? On Fresh Fires, Bentley web site there is much stuff about laying on of hands and personal healing... but nothing I can find about Creation, Justice, poverty etc.  nothing that relates to transforming the world as far as I can see.  Why is that, and what is the "point" of the revival?  If it is the renewing of the Church... to what end?

When the Toronto thing started to happen, a few years back, I was genuinely excited about the possibility that it could bring huge change to the world... especially after the "Decade of Evangelism" which seemed somewhat damp... but I'm really not convinced that anything lasting or radical came from it, so one ends up asking questions about it's story... which then leads to a certain cynicism about further similar "revivals" and whether people are just looking for the next "buzz".

Reading John 20 and Acts 2 for a sermon this weekend I find it notable that the two instances of the giving of the Spirit are linked to a being out in the world... in John Jesus says "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you"... if he does not mean the incarnation, to live ones life with people and to give ones life for people (1Thess 2 for example) as Jesus did for us, what can he mean?  The Pentecost experience did not lead to the Disciples going back to that room night after night... extending the run of the revival... rather in immediate contact with the "outside world", and eventually to the Disciples going out two by two into the wider world ministering to people where they are, beyond their culture and country... they where being prepared and equipped to change the world, a change we still feel the resonance of today... as have revivals of the past... my experience of revival in the modern age is that it falls into the trap of being consumerist and experiential, ie. people get stuck in the room...  I really hope this isn't another one of "those", and will really send people out in the way of Jesus... As I said, I'm not having a go at Bentley, or Charismatics... some of my closest friends are Charismatics ;-) I genuinely want to know what people (especially those who might not be as cynical as me) think.

Technorati Tags: Church: Missional: Spirituality

Comments

[mike]

Although I have experienced blessings from the "sowing of seed" (It was purely God-induced, not man initiated -- see my most recent blog posts) I too look at such things with a certain amount of skepticism. When they start selling writsbands, t shirts, caps and pieces of prayer cloth, to show you were there/encourage you to come there, real motives will be displayed.

[Phil Rankin]

Oh boy!! Not ANOTHER revival! Do these things really come along every 10 years or am I just imagining it?!!

I havent looked into this and have little intention of doing so. If this so called revival and movement of the spirit is what it says it is, then I won't have to investigate at all because it will profoundly alter people and thus the world around them. I doubt that I or most of the world's population will even notice.

As regards Northern Ireland's raising of the dead....pardon me?!! I live here and no one had bothered to mention it. With one of the best local news in the world (a benefit of our 'Troubles' when there was plenty to investigate and report) this is unlikely to be missed. Haven't even heard tell of it among church people.

I'm not sure I can be labelled a cynic...think I might be way beyond that!!

[Matt Long]

Felt compelled to comment as I read this post whilst in Holland visiting a church. I also ‘lost’ a young person to an internship with Todd Bentley. Actually spotted him on God TV in Florida last week! WEIRD!

Although there seemed to be pockets of life and some good stuff happening in Amsterdam… the people I was visiting didn’t seem to be aware of any revival! However, there was apparently a new ‘Todd Bentley’ type guy starting a big ministry in Holland… coincidence!???

I’ve been thinking about the whole Toronto / charismatic thing lots recently especially in a youthwork / festival context. Many of the young people I work with have started questioning the hype and buzz associated with sung-worship / prayer ministry / healing / the spirit… Do we really have to create a hyper-charismatic, emotional environment before we see ‘the spirit come’ and people saved, healed, moved etc??

It’s odd because in the Bible when Jesus and the disciples pray for people, heal etc they seem to be doing it in their natural environment – not in a big group or festival dynamic.

I think having an ‘encounter with Jesus’ and ‘being filled with the spirit’ (Toronto style) have an important part to play in personal transformation, but only as part of Gods wider vision of shalom for the earth. These encounters should transform people and drive them to get involved with Gods vision – not keep them in a room wanting more!

I would love to hear stories of the kingdom of God breaking in to everyday life (Toronto style) in natural surroundings – a la Jesus, acts of apostles!

[Jon]

Hey, I thought you might be interested in my post concerning Todd Bentley claiming it's NOT all about Jesus and that God told him that he should "get people to believe" in an angel and to lay off preaching Jesus.

If this doesn't show Todd's true agenda nothing does.

http://blog.thewaycf.com/

In Christ,

Jon Sharp

[maggi]

hey, mark, have you come across the Latter Rain movement, based on a doctrine that the AOG eventually declared heretical. (somewhere around 1948 or 49, from memory...) If you track down some information on that, I think you'll find it's illuminating.

[Mark]

Thanks Maggie... yes I have read some stuff on the "Latter Rain" movement... it seems Bentley has strong connections to the Kansas City Prophets... Including their relations with a certain "Angel Emma", Gold dust, Feathers etc. Indeed I heard one section where Bentley says God told him not to preach about Jesus, as everyone already believes in Jesus, but to preach Angels.

In some ways it looks very like some of the stuff you see at Mind*Body*Spirit (New Age) fairs mixed in with good old fashioned Gnosticism (special knowledge given to some) and Revivalism. Someone commented that Bentley was just Benny Hinn with Tatts!

[dan]

i've got a few questions over the whole florida thing, and while some of it definitely makes me uncomfortable, i'm also generally not that cynical so here's a few thoughts/questions indefence of it:
-why do we think that, just because we have questions that seemingly can't be answered, therefore that proves it's not a genuine move of God?
-simiilarly why do we think that, just because we can find things that definitely aren't right (like the seed thing), that proves it's not of God - could that more be a question of maturity?
-and again, why do we think, just because we can pick flaws in the generaly model of things like florida & toronto, that means it's wrong? i'm sure i can find plenty of failings in your model of church, but that doesn't mean you're not doing valid, godly stuff.
-i'm not sure how you can really quantify the effect of these revivals on the wider world. how do we know the world couldn't have been a whole lot worse if it wasn't for these things?
-the leaders at toronto don't know why God seems to work in specific areas, but you could argue it's biblical.
-good point about people not going back for more at pentecost, but then isn't the whole point of toronto the same? - you go there, get blessed/filled/anointed pentecost-style then go back to the 'outside world'.
-true, there's not a lot about justice/poverty etc, but is it a bit much to expect these revivals to cover every aspect needed for the renewal of the whole world and it's people?
-from a personal point of view, i went to toronto a few years ago, and the few months afterwards were the most intimate time i've ever had with God. there's no way i can know for sure the lasting effect of this - i have MS and have nearly killed myself because of it, but maybe my experience is why i'm still able to say God is good.

[Mark]

Hi Dan, thanks for the comment... I'm in general agreement with you, especially about the methodology question, I don't think there IS a right way, and as you say everything that has a human component will have flaws. I also agree one should begin by being generous, that's what I've tried to do - It's not my "scene" so I have been being careful not to dismiss it for that reason. I began by being sceptical but open - including going to a meeting in the UK... but I'll be honest with you, the more I've seen and heard of Bentley the more worried I have got.

Firstly, sure God might do some stuff within these things, but we are taught to be discerning - not just to accept stuff because it is accompanied by "Signs and Wonders" see for example Matthew 24 verse 23 and 24, where it says even the "Elect" will be fooled by the "great signs and miracles". Matthew 7 also seems to say that "many" will prophecy, cast out Demons and perform Miracles in the name of Jesus... but they are not "known" to Jesus... in fact Jesus labels them "Evildoers" in verse 23... So I think we need to be wary of simply accepting a "Revival" or whatever simply because either it might be delivered in "Jesus name" or because it is accompanied by miracles.

Secondly, Matthew 24 also seems to say if anyone says God is in a particular place (in this case the desert or inner rooms) then do not go there for the prophet is false! TBH that sounds awfully like Florida and indeed Toronto to me! And again in Matthew 24 we are told to measure everything by it's fruit, Whilst I appreciate and thank God for your story, TBH a few thousand Christians feeling good for a while is not "fruit" to me, I'm not asking these "Revivals" to solve the whole of the worlds ills, but I'd expect to see *some* relative effect outside of the "holy huddle", for it to truly be called "Revival". At the very least I'd be very surprised if after instructing us to be "good stewards" of Creation if God then said "Hey, blow the planet, in order to get some of my Spirit you have to get on a gas-guzzling airplane and fly half way across the globe!" - to me that is simply not-consistent with Scripture, the measure by which we are instructed to use.

I so want these things to be serious and to really impact the world (hence not instantly dismissing the Florida thing), but the more I look into in the more worried I become... if we really want peace, then maybe we need to listen to what Jeremiah said to the Babylonian exiles... 29v4-8...

""seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper."

The Prophets where prophesying that the people should remove themselves from the Babylonian people and that they would very soon be freed, and they where saying these things in God's name... but they where according to Jeremiah, lies... the people where going to be there for a while and they had to pray and work for the peace of the city of Babylon, for only in bringing peace would they receive it. All this "chosen generation" stuff, Tabernacle mentality and praying for the quick return of Christ seems to me to be somewhat similar. We are told by Jesus to "Go" - in Luke 10, in Matthew 28 etc. etc. not to a "Tabernacle" but into culture, into community, into the whole world. Why is the Church in such a mess? Maybe because it has become like the Babylonian Exiles, desperate for a way out of the world God has put us in.

... and thats without going over the whole Gnosticism, Seeding revival (whatever happened to "Freely you have been given, freely give"?) and preaching Angels not Christ stuff!